[F500] Dyno testing

Sun Jan 18 20:06:33 MST 2004

   Thank  you!  This  is  the  best  news  we  could hear about the motor
   situation! Some real action.
   John Whitling
   Mike Moench wrote:

Jay
I have a water brake dyno that I have tested the AMW and 494 motors on. I
will have this dyno up and running in 2 to 3 weeks. I use the Aim Sports
data collection system with a load cell to collect the test information to
my lap top. The calibration is not exact but for comparison it is accurate
and repeatable within 1 HP.

Jim Bonsey also has a new Land and Sea dyno which is calibrated and
corrected with an integral weather station.

I will try to run both motors back to back on both dynos and forward the
results to the F500 list.

I am currently running the 493 port timing and engine specifications through
the TSR Pipe design software for comparison to the 494.

Now that the first two Nationals are complete I will have time to work on
this..........................

Congratulations to Jason Somers on his second pole and National Win at
Moroso.

Sidewinder Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Novak" <jnovak6 at wideopenwest.com>
To: <f500 at f500.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [F500] 493 availability

No question that dyno testing would be a good idea if we could get
someone to do it.  Ken Brown (former SCCA club racing technical
director) started to go down this road before he was replaced.  He
actually got some dyno data that showed that a 493 had 2 more hp (I
think that is what he said).  The problem was that the testing was done
on 2 different dynos by different people.  So that result is essentially
meaningless. Plus/minus 2 hp is not much variation & is within
repeatability ranges for many dynos.  The only way to do this is to pay
a dyno house to really work on this & that would be just as expensive as
car testing.  Or we get a volunteer with a dyno to spend a few of days
to do this.  Is there anyone out there with the facility & interest to
do this?

Thanks ... Jay Novak
NovaRace Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Curtis [mailto:cteague at chartertn.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 9:54 PM
To: f500 at f500.org
Subject: Re: [F500] 493 availability

Don't get me wrong, it was only a suggestion in an attempt to get
something
that would satisfy the concerns I saw raised on the list.  I wasn't
suggesting that anyone was getting rich on F500 sales!  : )  Thanks for
the
breakdown on costs Jay, although it would appear that some of these
costs
have already been incurred since Don has done some testing previously.
Anyway, maybe it was a dumb idea, I've had one or two before!   But
maybe
dyno testing would be better, I don't know.  It would be nice to get
some
type of comparison that could be shared with the community that is
trying to
decide the acceptance of the engine.  If we wait until it is on the
track
(regional or national) there will always be the question of the
influence of
all the other factors (chassis setup, clutching, aerodynamics, weight,
and
so on) on the actual performance.

I know F500 sales are not some lucrative form of business and I respect
the
guys doing the car building.  I do see the other side of the coin
though,
and that is the guy paying out the cash for parts, including engines.
If
there is any possibility that a new engine will obsolete an existing one
(one that for many of us does not present a current problem) or reduce
the
value of the existing cars/parts, then it should concern a lot of people
enough to ask questions and seek answers.  Maybe the 493 is the best way
to
go for the future and maybe the data from regional races will show no
significant difference in performance, but you can't blame the people
with
money already invested in the current engine not to be concerned.  And
with
the number of "performance" changes made to the 494 rave engine I
believe it
is naive to think the 493 will not go through the same cycle.

Curtis Teague
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Novak" <jnovak6 at wideopenwest.com>
To: <f500 at f500.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [F500] 493 availability

Don Clar has done just that with a production NovaKar last year.  SCCA
attended the test.  They did not do a back to back as that would have
required another track day rental.  The test produced lap time that

were

within .5 seconds from the 494 engine.  Check with SCCA on this, it
happened.

What you propose is an interesting idea Curtis, however there are
several serious problems. Cost & logistics are the biggest.  When you
suggest that we absorb the cost so that we can make money on future
cars.  I have some bad news for you, no one who builds F500 cars is
making any money at all.  We have built & sold over 20 NovaKars  (12
years to do that) & I guarantee you that I have not made a nickel &

Don

Clar has just about recouped his tooling costs.  Remember that total

new

F500 sales are around 4-6 new cars/year for all builders (NOT EACH
BUILDER).
I am not complaining but people need to realize that this is not big
industry.  I will not really get into the profit issue. But the

reality

is that you need to sell about 40 to 50 cars over the life of a car to
amortize the tooling costs & then make a profit.  The problem is that
entry level racers generally do not have the $$$ needed to make F500 a
profit making venture.  Still, it is the best class for the buck & you
can't go faster for less money.  I design & build because I love it.
(Don Clar now builds the cars now & I do the design work)

Now to the projected costs for doing what you propose.

1. engines would cost Tony at least $2000 each.  Even if he loaned

them

to us he still has to purchase them & then we probably really do not
want them now as the 493 would not be legal till 2005.  So Tony is out
the cost of engines for the test.
2.  Engine installation:
design & machine engine mount.  4 to 6 man hours for design & $150
machine work.
3. Pipe & manifold.  The one Don Clar purchased cost over $400 because
it was a 1 off from Aaen
4.  labor to install engine, at least 20 to 25 man hours for something
we can't use for a year.
5.  Track rental.  This is anywhere from a low of $500/day to as much

as

$2500/day.  Yes you can do a track day on the Friday before a race for
$150 but that is down the road & then you have to switch back to go
National racing.
6.  Travel, track fuel, food expenses, at least $200 for a one day

test.

If you stay overnight then it is about $400 with 2 motel rooms for all
involved
7.  Tires.  Who knows? I have plenty of used tires but if I use up 2
sets for a 2 day test I then have to replace them.  Let's estimate

about

$250 worth of tires.
8.  Total labor involved to do this has got to be at least 100 man

hours

including work on car, travel, track time, etc. Remember that Don Clar
makes his living doing work on all kinds of race cars, so he can't

stop

paid work for fun.

Let's total up the costs:
Engine $2000 Tony Murphy
Mounts $150
Pipe etc $400 new Aaen
Tires $250 used tires
Track rental $1000 (Gingerman @ $500/day)
Travel, food, fuel etc. $400
Labor @ $50/hour $5000  real honest hard work

Total investement $9200 including labor
Or $4200 if labor is free (& it is not)

These are real numbers for someone who is trying to make a profit on
selling F500 cars.  When a new complete NovaKar roller chassis sells

for

$12K you would have to add $1000 to price of the next 9 cars to break
even.

Ask yourselves this question:  Was the approval & use of the Rotax 494
engine a good decision for F500?
I seriously doubt that anyone would say that is was bad for the class.
F500 is alive & well BECAUSE of Rotax engines.

Let's just get on with it guys.  We need an engine & we need approval
NOW.  If you want F500 to be around in 10 years we need a PRODUCTION
ENGINE.  If you do not care, then so be it, F500 will be gone.

Thanks ... Jay Novak
NovaRace Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Curtis [mailto:cteague at chartertn.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 3:01 PM
To: f500 at f500.org
Subject: Re: [F500] 493 availability

Thanks Art for the continual updates on the engines.  I have been
reading
the postings with great interest.

I believe addition of the 493 "might" be in the best interest of the
class,
but primarily from the standpoint of the car builders.  I fully
understand
their desire to have a new engine available for sale in a new car.
Makes
sense.  I, for one, do not believe there is an immediate need for any
type
of replacement for those of us desiring to continue running the 494
non-rave.  Maybe I am being naively optimistic, but I have not had
problems
getting parts.  Let me qualify that by saying that I am only

considering

the
two engines I have and a once a year "freshening."   I realize the

time

will
come when the parts will be harder/impossible to obtain, but I wonder

if

that will happen before the issue of replacing the 493 with another
engine
rolls around again (ie. people are still running Kaw engines after we
have
been through the change twice with AMW and Rotax).  Granted, if the

493

is
truly equal (or not significantly different) to the 494 non-rave, then
adding it to the approved list poses no problem.  So, I would pose the
following.

I believe the class deserves some hard data to show the comparability

of

the
493 with the 494 non-rave (never mind the rave and the mixing issues
which
I'll address below).  It is my belief that the only fair way to do

this

is
to run cars equipped with both engines at the same track, at the same
time,
with the same driver (I notice Jeremy has already volunteered
Jonathan!!),
setup equivalently.  Cheap?  Probably not.  Therefore, I would suggest
that
the car builders interested in having a new engine available get
together
and split the cost, oversee the testing, and publish the results.

Tony

should be all too willing to provide a stock 493 for use, and possibly

a

494
non-rave if the stock configuration is questionable.  I like Tony and
agree
he has been a great benefit to the class.  He is also running a

business

and
making money on the sale of engines (assumably, or he wouldn't stay in
business!), so it would be an investment for his business future.

This

data
would be factual, and would not be under the control of Rotax
(Bombardier)
so it could be published.  Maybe that is asking too much of the car
builders.  I realize they are not making a living building these cars,
but
with a half dozen or more sharing costs I would not expect that they
could
not recover the investment with future sales, etc.  It seems to be in
their
best interests.

Assuming we could accomplish this in 2004, it would go a long way

toward

getting a consensus on the use Nationally for 2005.  However, the

major

issue still exists of mixing of parts to make a "hot" engine.  Listing
the
"approved" parts is a great start, but it will depend on the level of
tech
inspection as to whether the mixed parts issue is policed.
Unfortunately,
short of formal protest, we cannot control this.  I for one do not

want

to
see a situation where someone is protested at every event because they
are
faster.  If the above testing could be arranged, maybe a "hot"
configuration
494 non-rave and a 494 rave could be included for comparison.  At the
end of
the day however, I think it is going to be impossible to eliminate
infringement of the rules.  Look at NASCAR for example!  Maybe the

real

answer would be to specify the max displacement and open it up to any
production parts arrangement.  I know, I know, expensive......but some
are
already spending the money it would appear from the posts.  For what
it's
worth, a few more HP, although always welcome, would not have helped

me

significantly toward the end of this season, as I was struggling with
setup/suspension woes and likely could not have taken advantage of it.
Which brings me to my final point, fast lap times are always about

more

than
just HP!!  I think the 493 definitely has a place in F500 future, but
lets
get some hard data.

Let's finish the engine debates and start talking about adding shocks
again!!!  : )  Talk about improving lap times (and ruffling feathers).
I,
for one, would welcome the challenge of tuning these cars with a spec
shock!!

Curtis Teague

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